XVI CONGRESS OF THE RUSSIAN GEOGRAPHICAL SOCIETY

In 2013, the Tourism Development Commission was formed. It consists of 25 experts in the field of environmental protection and cultural heritage sites in Russia. Vladimir Kotlyakov, Chairman of the Tourism Development Commission, Honorary President of the Society, Scientific Director of the Institute of Geography of the Russian Academy of Sciences, member of the Russian Academy of Sciences, told us what successes have been achieved over the past five years.

— Vladimir Mikhailovich, please tell us about what the RGS considers important in its tourism development work?

— For decades, both in the Soviet and post-Soviet eras, the Russian Geographical Society has been actively engaged in scientific work and work with the public. In 2010, it received new opportunities for development. In particular, it was decided to create commissions in the RGS on various issues, and one of them was the Tourism Development Commission. I've been in charge of it for eight years, and a lot of work has been done during that time.

Tourism-related topics have long existed in the RGS. There was, for example, a whole era of local history, where the Society actively supported the research of specialists and enthusiasts in the regions. Now this area of work has become especially relevant.

— Which of the current projects in the field of tourism can you single out?

— I am very pleased and proud that we have managed to secure grants for three projects related to tourism. Firstly, this is “The Golden Ring of the Bosporan Kingdom” project, a tourist route to places where the cities of the ancient state were located in ancient times. This initiative was initiated by the Krasnodar Regional Branch of the RGS. It's a great idea, based on a keen interest in history. Besides, it's subtropical area that has magnificent natural conditions for recreation and tourism. 12 cities and towns are participating in “The Golden Ring of the Bosporan Kingdom” project, among them is Azov, also known as ancient Tanais; Anapa, aka Gorgippia; Kerch, that used to be called Panticapaeum; and many others.

For the first time, this project connects all regions of Southern Russia, reveals their tourism potential, and gives an impetus to the development of tourism. Every tourist makes a journey not only in space, but also in time: the route runs through ancient trade routes around the legendary Bosporan Kingdom. In our opinion, the project will be attractive for tourists not only from Russia, but also from all over the world. According to data from last year, 1,750,500 people traveled this route! I consider this a great achievement of the Krasnodar Branch of the RGS. Thanks to their skills, it became possible to attract regional authorities and businesses to the project, arouse their real interest, and begin to implement their plans.

The second project is “The Golden Ring of Siberia” tourist route. It is even more ambitious and will unite 12 regions of Russia. The initiator of the project is the Tomsk Branch of the RGS. I love this city very much, I lectured there for the first time in my life at a local university and visited it many times afterwards. Work on the project has been underway since 2017. It received grant support from the Russian Geographical Society and the Presidential Grants Fund. The experts of the RGS traveled all over Siberia, visited more than 100 attractions, assessed the possibilities of different places and different routes. It is expected that local tour operators, with whom cooperation agreements are concluded, will transport tourists along the routes of "The Golden Ring of Siberia". Siberia will cease to be a tourist "blind spot", because it still remains so not only for foreigners, but also for residents of their native country!

The third project has only recently been launched. These are routes with the temporary name "Western Side of Russia". They will go through the Smolensk, Kaluga, Pskov Regions, and the west of the Moscow Region. These places have a rich history and beautiful Central Russian nature. The Smolensk Branch of the Society took the initiative, received a grant from the RGS, and is already finalizing the project.

— The RGS supports tourism in nature reserves. Why? Is it possible to preserve nature in this way?

— We have more than 100 nature reserves in our country. These territories have been completely closed to the public for a long time in order to preserve the wildlife in its original form. But over time, it became clear that it was impossible and wrong to leave them completely and forever "behind the fence". Educational eco-tourism is the best way to foster people's love for nature. We have been dealing with this problem for a long time – how to combine nature conservation with the opportunity to show it to people without causing damage. We think this is important because people should be able to get to know nature, see its richness and beauty, and become supporters of its conservation. We have developed two tourist guides and two brochures on the Sikhote-Alin and Altai Nature Reserves. These brochures have been published and are in high demand. We are planning to continue publishing such tourist guides for other nature reserves.

— Which regions are currently in the focus of your Commission?

— I want to say a special word about Altai. Altai is an extraordinary territory in Russia. I have been there many times, lived and attended school there during the war years. These places are very close to me. Our Commission has devoted more than one season to promote the work of the Altai Branch of the RGS and a number of local organizations for the development of these territories. Now the Society supports the creation of a tourism cluster in the Katun Valley.

Even now, the level of tourist centers there is very high. The most important task is to create consistency in the development of territories, to prevent overloading and spontaneity.

In 2018, we held one of our annual meetings in Altai, visited the Belokurikha resort, and held a meeting on Lake Teletskoye. This is a unique, extraordinary lake. It is extremely attractive for tourism, but it requires a very responsible approach to infrastructure development. Currently, several projects have been developed there, there are enthusiasts, and the Commission actively supports them.

— Many people fear that tourists may simply "trample" nature reserves.

— A man is a man. And of course, tourism must first and foremost be civilized. We must try to educate our population, instill in them love and respect for nature. It is for this that we are developing tourism. And personally, it seems to me that many of those who are now actively interested in eco-tourism already understand that they are "visiting" nature and should behave in a civilized manner. Of course, a lot depends on the organizers of the tours and on the local authorities. When developing tourism in Altai, planning the infrastructure and route system, first of all, care must be taken not to harm the unique nature. And I believe it's possible.

— Please, say a few words about the publishing activities of the Commission.

— At one of the meetings of the Governing Council of the RGS, it was decided to publish a well-illustrated book of essays on different territories of our country. The name for it was suggested by Sergei Kuzhugetovich Shoigu himself: “Gde ya dolzhen pobyvat, chtoby poznat' Rossiyu” (eng. "Where I Should Go to Get to Know Russia"). The project turned out to be very successful, and we made three interesting, informative, illustrated books. A lot of effort was put into them, both idea-wise and technically. And my efforts personally, because I have read all this, systematized it, and wrote five essays myself: about the Russian Arctic, the “Moscow Circumnavigation”, the Caucasian Mineral Waters, the Arkhangelsk Region, and Pryazovia. The books came out beautifully and sold out very quickly. We have received a lot of feedback, including from abroad.

— The project "Travels with the RGS" has been in existence for two years. Tell us, please, what is its essence?

— The RGS is currently developing the idea of supporting the most interesting, meaningful, and informative trips around Russia. Sort of certifying them with its "seal of approval" – "Recommended by the RGS". Now, as far as I know, the RGS promotes about 60 tours from 9 tour operators. The authority of the Society is such that, of course, the recommendation of the RGS means a lot to tour operators and, of course, to tourists. The Chairman of Rostourism has always been a member of our Tourism Development Commission.

This project, of course, helps to develop our domestic tourism. Russia has unlimited opportunities for it, both natural and historical. But everything is held back by the lack of infrastructure. You might come to an interesting territory, but you won’t be able get through there. For example, Western Siberia is an amazing place for tourism. The Vasyugan Swamp is the largest in the world. But at least some kind of infrastructure is needed there. It needs to be developed and built.

It is necessary to invest considerable funds, federal and investment, from business. This is where the authority and recommendations of the RGS can help a lot. And we're doing it.

— From your point of view, what is especially important for domestic tourism now?

— It's not enough to just say, “Let's organize domestic tourism in the country!” By themselves, words do not create anything. First of all, regional authorities and local businesses should be interested in the development of domestic tourism. In this situation, the RGS provides a variety of support: expert advice, recommendations based on existing experience, media promotion, and so on. And the authority of Society is perhaps even the most important thing.

But the role of local authorities at the level of republics and regions is very important here. Local authorities and businesses should do everything in the regions: build roads and hotels, search for and invest funds. We have already discussed “The Golden Ring of the Bosporan Kingdom” and “The Golden Ring of Siberia” projects here. These are examples of how the initiative and support of regional authorities can promote domestic tourism.

But the system of measures to support such initiatives should be approved at the highest level of the state and at the level of the subjects of the Federation, where tourism should develop. We know that many regions are ready for such initiatives, and we are ready to support them.

— Which regions, in your opinion, are the most promising?

— The Far East is very promising, the Primorye Territory in particular. There's real wildlife there, the southern taiga – there's nothing like it anywhere else in the world! There are mountains, the ocean, and the port of Vladivostok with sea travel opportunities.

There is also, of course, Kamchatka. In our opinion, it is at the ends of the earth. But if we could get investments in infrastructure and transport there, Kamchatka would become a center for inbound tourism, as people from all over the world are already coming there.

I would like to say especially about Tomsk. This city is the center of Siberian culture. The wooden architecture there is incredible in beauty and preservation! In this regard, Arkhangelsk is also beautiful with its history of Pomeranian culture and the history of Peter the Great's Fleet. Until recently, ships used to sail along the Northern Dvina, but now, unfortunately, everything here is in decline. But it's so beautiful there! Solovki is nearby, and that's not all.

I also want to mention Altai, which is a treasure trove for tourism: the Altai Mountains with glaciers, the wonderful Biya and Katun Rivers, the unique Lake Teletskoye, an uncountable number of apiaries, and the real Siberian taiga, and with it the breadbasket of Russia with endless fields and countless gardens. All these are territories that have a great future for tourism.

— Do you think it is possible to preserve the wooden architecture of the North and Siberia?

— You know, there is a phrase from Krylov: "pies should be baked by a pie-maker, and boots should be made by a shoemaker." Unfortunately, this principle is often not respected in Russia. Everything can be done if you take it up competently and professionally. And the state must understand that it is necessary to invest in this unique heritage now, while it still exists.

And tourism can and should play a crucial role in preserving our natural and cultural heritage. I had to travel a lot around our country and I see that in recent years many regions – the Caucasus, Altai, the Urals, Siberia – have made very big steps to develop tourism. Tourism is the most important support in the economy of the regions, which means that the work will continue.

Interviewed by Natalya Mozilova

The reintroduction of Przewalski's horse, the rescue of nature reserves, scientific and ecological expeditions… We spoke with Aleksandr Aleksandrovich Chibilev, Vice-President of the Russian Geographical Society, Chairman of the Permanent Environmental Protection Commission of the RGS, and found out what the commission has been doing over the past five years.

— Aleksandr Aleksandrovich, what does the Permanent Environmental Protection Commission of the RGS do?

— The Commission was founded in 1912 (Editor’s Note: the commission existed until 1918 and was restored in 2012) to protect the natural heritage of our country. In fact, it laid the foundations of nature conservation in Russia. The commission's focus has always been on nature reserves and national parks. The commission consists of 37 people from different cities of Russia: from Vladivostok to Kaliningrad. Everyone works on a voluntary basis. We are an advisory body that responds to requests to the RGS related to nature conservation. It even happens that some school student writes to Vladimir Putin, Chairman of the Board of Trustees of the RGS, and we prepare a response and make inquiries to various organizations. Sometimes, thanks to the commission, controversial issues in the field of ecology are resolved. For example, the commission helped to stop the construction of a large hotel complex on the Curonian Spit in the Kaliningrad Region. In addition, several grants from the RGS are awarded annually on the recommendation of the commission. For example, with the support of the commission, the Institute of Geography of the Siberian Branch of the Russian Academy of Sciences published “Atlas zapovednikov i nacionalnyh parkov Sibiri” (eng. “Atlas of Reserves and National Parks of Siberia”) and “Atlas zapovednikov i nacionalnyh parkov Dalnego Vostoka” (eng. “Atlas of Reserves and National Parks of the Far East”). A large multi-year grant was provided by the Severtsov Institute of Ecology and Evolution.

— People from the outside may ask, how does the RGS Environmental Protection Commission differ from the Minprirody?

— The full name of the Minprirody is the Ministry of Natural Resources. There is no nature there as such. In 2000, the Ministry of Ecology was done away with, and all reserves and national parks are not in the Ministry of Nature, not in the Ministry of Environmental Protection, but in the Ministry of Natural Resources. What are natural resources? These are oil, gas, forest resources, and hunting resources. Natural resources are what we consume. The task of our commission is to protect nature from the Minprirody. For us, nature is not a resource, but an asset, a condition for the survival of mankind. Our approaches are completely different.

For example, on the border of the Samara and Orenburg Regions there is a national park, Buzuluksky Forest. In 1917, along with 46 other Russian natural heritage sites, it was included in the list of the first nature reserves in Russia. But in 1948 the reserve was closed. Lumberjacks and oilmen entered there. The Geographical Society of the USSR made a lot of efforts to return the unique, world's only pine forest in the steppe zone to the protected category. In 2007, Buzuluksky Forest finally became a national park. But it is under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Natural Resources. In 2014, the ministry announced a tender for the development of oil fields inside the park, and one of the three fields is currently being developed there. We are trying to limit such economic activities with the help of public opinion and scientific knowledge.

Unlike the ministry, we also disagree with how Russia's tourism infrastructure sometimes develops. For example, in the Sochi area, an offensive is underway towards the World Natural Heritage Site, the Western Caucasus. Funiculars are built first to the alpine meadows, then enter the nival belt (Editor’s Note: the belt of perpetual snow). Here, on the one hand, we are going to repopulate the leopard, and at the same time we are developing tourism. This is wrong. We have been involved in the repopulation of Przewalski's horse and we know that the habitat for animals is paramount.

— Speaking of horses, how did you manage to implement the project of the RGS for the return of Przewalski's horse?

— In 2010-2011, the Orenburg Regional Branch of the RGS and the Institute of Steppe of the Ural Branch of the Russian Academy of Sciences was actively dealing with the issue of the return of Przewalski’s horse to the Orenburg steppes. Specialists were sent to Mongolia, to the very places where 130 years ago the famous traveler, member of the RGS Nikolai Przhevalsky discovered Przewalski’s horse for science. It was from there that his student, the equally famous traveler Pyotr Kozlov, brought these animals to the first Russian nature reserve Askania-Nova, created by the philanthropist Falz-Fein. From there, Przewalski's horses ended up in European nature reserves and zoos. We have already brought our horses from the Moscow Zoo to the Center for Breeding of Steppe Animals in the Orenburg steppes. Now our horses are breeding safely in a closed area. At the same time, the enclosure is not the final destination. The main goal is to return these animals to the wild so that they can live freely with moose, roe deer, and saiga antelopes. This is already happening in Mongolia.

— Does the study of habitat conditions for wild horses take place in the steppe expedition?

— Among other things. The steppe expedition is in its sixth year with the support of the RGS. Its goal is to create a unified scientific and information base about the steppe regions. I would like to note that the steppe belt is not limited to Russia. The scale of our expeditions ranges from Eastern Austria to Mongolia and Northeastern China. It is 8,500 kilometers from west to east.

The steppe zone suffered greatly as a result of human economic activity in the twentieth century, especially after the development of virgin lands and fallow lands. The flat area has always been considered as an object for agriculture, intensive cattle breeding, oil and gas production. We, on the other hand, study and preserve the nature of the steppe. For example, we publish encyclopedias and carry out extensive educational work. We have a traveling exhibition “Kartiny prirody stepnoj Evrazii” (eng. "Photos of the Nature of Steppe Eurasia"), we hold photo contests dedicated to the steppe.

— During this time, have you managed to make any discoveries in the steppe, in terms of flora and fauna?

— New species are being discovered in the field of entomofauna. There are also discoveries of new habitats for plants and animals. Nature is developing: plants disappear somewhere, appear somewhere, the same thing happens with animals. The titular animals of the steppe zone disappeared and reappeared in new places: saiga, great bustard, little bustard, and other species. But the main thing in the modern scientific expedition is not to discover new species or new natural objects, but to establish new patterns and trends in the development of nature, to look for ways to preserve the natural heritage – which is what we are doing.

— Aleksandr Aleksandrovich, who helps you preserve nature, individual enthusiasts or maybe businesses?

— There are individual businessmen who have been supporting our projects for many years. For example, Orenburg philanthropist Aleksandr Zelentsov played a major role in the implementation of the project to preserve Przewalski’s horse. He invested money in the creation of an enclosure, the delivery of the first horses. But there are few such people.

Businesses are interested not so much in real help as in promoting its supposedly environmental initiatives. Therefore, businessmen are more often ready to support large projects. And when we try to support the conservation and study of, say, small and less noticeable animals, we are told, "What are you talking about? Why would we support this nondescript animal?"

In general, our businesses are environmentally irresponsible. It is often necessary to convince, "You are guests here. You have to accept the conditions of the local people, the local nature." Maybe everything looks good from Moscow, but in fact in the regions we see the opposite picture: businesses are irresponsible towards nature, because entrepreneurs themselves, as a rule, do not live here, they do not breathe this air, they do not drink this water.

In fact, the natural environment is becoming uninhabitable in many regions. The population is simply leaving the territories – it cannot be hidden. We receive a lot of letters about this. We're looking into it, and we're sending some requests to the regional branches of the RGS.

— Are young people volunteering to protect nature?

— Yes, of course. And we rely primarily on young people. The foundation of our Steppe Expedition in many regions is the youth clubs of the RGS and their representatives. In the Altai Territory, for example, young people work very well at the regional branch of the RGS. Such enthusiasts inspire us, adult geographers, to act more actively. Although there is no activity at all in some regions. We move a lot from region to region, and there is an opportunity to compare.

— In your opinion, which branch of the RGS pays more attention to environmental issues and protects nature more?

— I think it's in the Republic of Bashkortostan. Also in Yakutia, the Perm Region. To some extent, in Khakassia, there is a large regional office that cooperates with the Khakassia Nature Reserve. The Sverdlovsk Regional Branch has been gaining momentum in recent years. There is an active movement in some regions, but there is no result, because it is very difficult to resolve issues with local authorities. For example, in the Krasnodar Region.

In fact, the natural environment is becoming uninhabitable in almost all regions, and the population is simply leaving these territories. We receive a lot of complaints. We're looking into them, sending them to the regional branches. Unfortunately, not everything is in our jurisdiction. The commission deals with just some individual cases.

— Nevertheless, the Environmental Protection Commission of the RGS has joined the conservation of Bashkir shikhans …

— Bashkiria has the Sterlitamak Shikhans, a unique geological monument of nature, ancient coral reefs that were located in the past at the bottom of the Perm Sea. They are over 230 million years old. It is a sacred place for the Bashkir people. In addition, there are many Red Book plants growing there. There are three shikhans in total: Yuraktau, Kushtau, and Toratau. Until recently, there was a fourth shikhan, Shakhtau. But it was consumed by the “Soda” company. By now, there is practically nothing left of Shakhtau: there is a quarry on the site of shikhan. The industrial development of the shikhan began back in the 1950s. The remaining three shikhans are still safe, although the threat of repeating the unenviable fate of Shakhtau is also looming over them. “Soda” complains about the depletion of the developed field and seeks to transfer the shikhans to it.

At the moment, the head of the Republic of Bashkortostan has decided not to touch the mountains. Nevertheless, there are still loopholes for industrial development. Local conservationists are trying to give the shikhans a protected status. There are chances, and everything depends on our activity, including the stance of the RGS.

— Does the Russian Geographical Society celebrate conservationists in any way?

— One of the ways to encourage is the Borodin Gold Medal. We came up with it in 2011 specifically to encourage specialists in the field of ecology. Ivan Parfenevich is a botanist, the founder of the Russian environmental movement, one of the ideologists and founders of our commission, and therefore the Borodin Gold Medal bears his name. We award the medal to both practitioners and theorists, both unknown in wide circles of nature conservation enthusiasts and famous scientists. In particular, the medal was awarded to corresponding members of the Russian Academy of Sciences Gennady Rosenberg and Arkady Tishkov, who made a huge contribution to the theory and practice of nature reserve management and nature conservation. At the same time, we are always ready to support young enthusiasts who have been striving for the creation of nature reserves for many years, establish a dialogue with businesses and government, and protect natural sites that are threatened by mining or construction.

— Tell me, if the RGS could issue more grants, what would be worth spending them on?

— There are a lot of grants from the RGS now, but they need to be distributed more evenly. The country is big, we need to improve all the regions. So that there are no blank spots. Moreover, the share of environmental protection projects is negligible. Suffice it to say that our commission's quota is three projects out of 70-120.

— And as for animals, the conservation of which species requires an urgent solution?

— There are many such species. For example, the giant blind mole-rat is endemic to Russia and the Caspian Region. The animal is unique, little-studied, and there are many legends about it. A kilogram animal lives underground, digs like a bulldozer, raises mounds up to a meter high. This is a landscape-forming species. I've been observing it for several decades now. It disappeared in some places, and then suddenly, to my joy, it reappeared in other places.

Sea otters should also be included there. In the last expedition to the Kuril Islands, there were only 219 of them. But they play an important role in the ecosystem because they feed on sea urchins. Urchins completely eat up the underwater garden, and without algae, the ocean ecosystem cannot function properly.

For a short time, the population was restored to 15,000 specimens, but after 2003 the situation worsened: the gillnets used to fish on the Kuril Islands are a real trap for sea otters. The animals get entangled in them and die. By 2017, the population in some regions had decreased by 80%. We need to save these animals now, otherwise they will only be left with memories.

— What course will the commission take in the coming years?

— Russia has the largest natural diversity in the world. I would like the protection of this diversity not to be carried out spontaneously on the enthusiasm of individuals in a particular region, but to be of a government nature, so that there would be a special agency, independent of natural resource interests, which would be responsible for this. We cannot be content with the nature reserves that were conceived by our founders and that somewhat developed during the Soviet era. It is necessary to preserve unique natural objects evenly throughout the country and assign them the appropriate status. Otherwise, it may happen that they will remain only in photographs taken by photographers, in photo archives. There are still many "blank spots" on the map of Reserved Russia.

Interviewed by Natalya Mozilova

Why is the Earth round? Does the Kama flow into the Volga or does the Volga flow into the Kama? Which atlas is the best to study so that you don't lose your way in broad daylight? All these issues are dealt with by the Geographical and Environmental Education Commission of the Russian Geographical Society. The successor to the commission that existed before the revolution, it was recreated in 2013. We learned about the results of its activities over the past five years from the Chairman of the Commission, Nikolai Kasimov, and his deputy, Aleksandr Lobzhanidze..

The development of a concept for the development of geographical education in Russia began in 2015, and in 2018 it was approved at a board meeting of the Ministry of Education of the Russian Federation. Why is there a need for such a concept and how are things going with its implementation?

Nikolai Kasimov: “We are making great efforts to ensure that geography takes its rightful place among school subjects. This is important, first of all, from the point of view of national identity: along with the Russian language, literature, and history, geography allows us to understand ourselves as a nation. This requires a linguistic, historical, and geographical pictures of the world, on the basis of which a value system, outlook, professional activity, and much more are built.”

Aleksandr Lobzhanidze: “A new version of the Federal State Educational Standard is currently being discussed, the current version requires changes, including in accordance with the concept of geographical education. We have adjusted the requirements for the subject, taking into account the approaches formulated in it, first of all, the systematic activity approach. When developing the content of the new monitoring and measuring materials for Unified State Exam (EGE) and Basic State Exam (OGE), if possible, make the tasks practice-oriented, taking into account the main directions of the concept of territorial development of Russia and other national projects, the content of which is directly related to geography, such as ‘Demography’ and ‘Ecology’.”

In May 2019, President Vladimir Putin approved a list of instructions on popularization of geography. Are there any indicators to judge how popular the subject is now?

Aleksandr Lobzhanidze: “First of all, the popularity of the subject is shown by the number of participants in the OGE and EGE exams in geography. The relevance of the subject is also proved by the number of people willing to take the main state exam in geography: approximately 400,000 students choose geography, which is the second result after social studies. Last year, many students took part in the All-Russian Geography Test, and this is a good indicator.

Today, it is planned to switch the exams to an electronic format in order to practically eliminate the human factor during the examination. This year, we have prepared the OGE assignments in electronic format for Moscow, illustrating a significant part of the questions.”

And what about the EGE in geography?

Aleksandr Lobzhanidze: “We annually change the content of the EGE in accordance with the state requirements for the current model of education and for the prospective model, which is due to be released in 2022. Students must demonstrate working with a variety of information sources. For this, we have added a new level of tasks. The text assignments include many topics related to the Russian identity and achievements of Russia, for example, about the icebreaker fleet, the development of the Northern Sea Route, etc. There are texts related to solving major natural and economic issues in Russia, selected in the context of a practice-oriented concept.

To ensure proper preparation for the EGE, we work with teachers: methodological seminars in the regions, annual seminars of the FIPI (Federal Institute of Pedagogical Measurements), etc. In 2020, the number of geography exam takers is approaching 17,000, which is slightly lower than usual. In order for the EGE in geography to become popular, it is necessary that this exam be in demand when applying to universities, and this area also requires work.”

Nikolai Kasimov: “In order for children to want to take geography, it is necessary to expand the number of majors that would require entrance tests in this subject. This task is included in the list of President's instructions. I consider it an important achievement that when applying for majors related to economic security and military specialization, it will now be necessary to take geography. In particular, starting next year, geography will be introduced as an entrance exam for the logistics support major. During the war, it was geographers and geologists who worked in this field: they were solving engineering issues, supply tasks, etc.

But the exam subjects are determined by universities, and there are certain difficulties associated with this. For example, in the 90s, when applying to one of the economics majors, it was necessary to take geography. Now other subjects are required instead, for example, at Moscow State University it is a foreign language. Of course, economists need to know it. But geography would be more appropriate as an entrance to the higher education system. To enroll in majors related to tourism, they are currently taking history classes. But for professionals in this field, geography is necessary. The same applies to environmental education – ecologists need not only biology, but also geography. For interdisciplinary fields in general, it is often necessary to know both. In my opinion, it’s no problem at all if you take two specialized exams – history and geography, or biology and geography, etc.”

Aleksandr Lobzhanidze: “Starting in 2020, geography will be introduced as one of the mandatory university exams for 12 new majors, including oil and gas, economics, international relations, public and municipal administration, and tourism. However, in our opinion, this is not enough!”

Nikolai Kasimov: “Nowadays, education standards should be linked to professional standards. At the same time, there is simply no ‘geographer’ major at the moment. Due to the fact that the list of President's instructions included the task of including the group of classes ‘geographers’ in the All-Russian classifier, we began work on creating an appropriate professional standard. We organized a survey, which was taken by 413 representatives of legal entities and 1,021 individuals. As a result, we created a functional map and registered a notification on the development of the professional standard ‘geographer’ in 2020, prepared a draft of the professional standard ‘geographer’, and held a professional and public discussion.

The process is underway, and draft documents have already been prepared on the inclusion of the professional standard in the All-Russian classifier of economic activities and products by type of economic activity and in the All-Russian classifier of occupations. We hope that the standard will be adopted before the end of the year. So far, we have covered only a few types of geographical activities, but I think by treading this path, we can add others.”

As far as I know, the scope of the Commission's activities also includes the inspection of textbooks. What is the reason for the need to monitor their quality?

Nikolai Kasimov: “According to the law on education, textbooks are updated every five years. And while geography is relatively stable in its natural part, economic and demographic data are constantly changing, and they may become completely different over this period. Therefore, the author must significantly update the content in each new edition, and it is necessary to periodically check the relevance of the information.

Until recently, the Charter of the Russian Geographical Society did not include expert activity, and we could not work in this direction. But in recent years, after a corresponding change in the Charter, we have inspected two lines of school atlases and contour maps on geography from the publishing houses “BINOM. Laboratoriya Znaniy” (“Prosvescheniye” holding) and "Drofa" for grades 5 to 11. Based on the results of this work, the information indicated on the maps was updated, and illustrations from the scientific and photographic archives of the RGS were added to the atlases of the “Drofa” publishing house.”

Aleksandr Lobzhanidze: “When the Ministry of Education and Science reduced the federal list of geography textbooks in 2018, teachers sent an open letter to the President of the Russian Geographical Society, Sergei Kuzhugetovich Shoigu, and asked that the experts of the RGS took over the inspection. As a result, a significant part of the textbooks were restored to the federal list.“

And how do we teach geography at a high enough level? Are there any ways to test this, other than exams?

Aleksandr Lobzhanidze: “This year, for the first time, we will host ‘The Best Geography Teacher’ competition, organized by the Russian Geographical Society and the Association of Geography Teachers, and then we will find out.

We also consider the olympiad program, which is actively supported by the Russian Geographical Society, to be one of the achievements. The members of the Russian national team have been among the winners and runners-up of international olympiads for a number of years. In 2019, for the first time in the long history of Russia and the Soviet Union's participation in international olympiads, our participant became the absolute winner, now he is a 2nd-year student at the Faculty of Geography of Moscow State University. This is one of the objective indicators of the level of geography education in our country.”

How does the RGS support the olympiad program?

Aleksandr Lobzhanidze: “With the grant support of the RGS, the national team gatherings are organized at training camps in preparation for the international olympiad, as well as purchasing equipment necessary for conducting the field stage during the All-Russian stage, methodological work, and publishing materials from international olympiads.

In addition, on the initiative of the Commission and with the grant support of the RGS, regional centers for geographical education are being created. In Moscow, the olympiad training program in all subjects is conducted at the center for pedagogical excellence, and now Moscow schoolchildren hold 40% of the spots at the olympiads, since only individual enthusiasts in the regions are engaged in this. We hope that the regional centers created with the support of the RGS will help narrow the gap and give more children the opportunity to prove themselves.”

What other interesting projects in the field of education have received grant support from the RGS?

Aleksandr Lobzhanidze: “Firstly, with the support of the RGS, the regional component of the geography course is being implemented. For two years, we plan to provide grant support to the ‘Regional Studies of Russia’ portal so that the subjects of the Russian Federation can present their regional textbooks, as well as projects by teachers and schoolchildren to study the geography of their native land.

Secondly, in recent years, grants have been allocated for videos related to the geography of Russia. Thirdly, it is a serious program to support specialized sessions at our base camps: ‘Orlyonok’, ‘Artek’, ‘Ocean’, and ‘Smena’. There were 300 people in ‘Artek’ alone last year.”

So, is it safe to say that interest in geography is growing in Russia?

Aleksandr Lobzhanidze: “There is a fairly obvious indicator here: the Geographical Dictation, which is regularly conducted by the RGS. The number of participants is increasing every year, and their results are improving.”

Nikolai Kasimov: “I would also mention ‘The Best Guide’ competition held by the RGS. It is noticeable in the All-Russian format and plays an important educational role.

The obvious success of our activity is the appearance of Geographer's Day, which will be celebrated on August 18. Another significant indicator is that the honorary title "Honored Geographer of the Russian Federation" appeared at the state level, which was approved at the end of 2019. These are no longer our internal achievements, which only we know about, but public recognition. And it seems to me very important.”

Interviewed by Natalya Mozilova

Where should roads be laid? Which enterprises should be built? How can we improve the demographic situation in a particular region? Socio-economic geography deals with these and other issues. The Russian Geographical Society's Territorial Organization and Planning Commission is responsible for this area. We talked with the co-chairman of the Commission, the Vice-President of the Society, Vladimir Razumovsky, and learned about the results of the commission's activities over the past five years.

— Vladimir Mikhailovich, please tell, what does the commission do?

— The Commission was organized to mobilize the intellectual potential of the members of the Russian Geographical Society in order to solve urgent problems of Russia's regional development, strategic and territorial planning, large-scale dissemination and practical implementation of the best achievements of economic and geographical science, popularization of economic and geographical knowledge about Russia, its regions and cities.

The commission pays great attention to working with young people, primarily through the exchange of experience, the establishment of creative connections, and professional development of young geographers. In particular, the Commission conducts schools and seminars for young geographers called “Theory and Practice of Modern Regional Studies”. About 150 undergraduates and postgraduates, as well as over 25 leading Russian scientists in the field of regional studies, take part in their work annually.

— The co-chairman of the commission is, in fact, your Siamese twin, the Vice-President of the Society, the scientific director of the Pacific Geographical Institute of the Far Eastern Branch of the Russian Academy of Sciences, Pyotr Baklanov. How does your interaction work?

— We are in different parts of Russia and, thus, cover it all (laughs). And the unifying force, the soul of our commission, is the economic geographer Vladimir Shuvalov, who lives in Moscow. Communication takes place in different ways: at conferences and other events, by phone, by e-mail. In general, we are long-time friends and work well together.

— What important things has the commission done over the past five years?

— The Commission has prepared a number of expert opinions on certain problems of regional development, implemented initiative projects, held public lectures and scientific conferences. Among them are the international scientific conference "Issues of Marine Spatial Planning", held in November 2017 in St. Petersburg, and the regularly held seminar "Marine Spatial Planning". The Commission annually held an international school-seminar for young scientists "Theory and Practice of Modern Regional Studies" in different cities of Russia. At the initiative of the commission and with the direct participation of its members, the preparation of the publication "Sovremennaya geografiya Rossii" (eng. "Modern Geography of Russia") in four volumes is being completed.

— Periodically, there is a consolidation or division of regions. Are you involved in such activities?

— We are. We are conducting expert work in this area. In particular, the commission participated in the development of "Spatial Development Strategy of the Russian Federation", adopted by the Government of the Russian Federation in March 2019. For the first time in recent decades, geographers have played first fiddle in the preparation of an important strategic document. The working group on the preparation of this document at the Ministry of Economic Development of the Russian Federation consisted of five members of the commission. Issues related to the development of the strategy were discussed at several meetings of the commission.

— In your opinion, how favorable is the modern division of Russia?

— The territorial division and spatial organization of a country cannot be a fixed form: the structure of the economy, the environmental situation, and the transport system are changing, new sources of resources are emerging, and old ones are being used up. So administrative borders sometimes change, as they should when economic ties between individual regions, cities, and industrial complexes change. The main thing is to respond to significant changes in time. But usually the administrative-territorial division lags somewhat behind what is happening in life and in the economy. And this is almost inevitable.

There have been practically no significant divisions in Russia lately, mainly consolidations.

— And the annexation of Crimea?

— It's a return.

— What is the most underrated region in Russia?

— We have several such regions. These are almost all the eastern and northern regions.

— Is there anything that can be done about them?

— It is necessary! The main thing is to understand what to do and how to do it.

— The people on whom it depends — do they understand?

— Sometimes there is an issue of the relationship between the region and businesses. For example, a large deposit is identified. I will not specifically name the region and the participants, the situation is typical. Based on the theory and practice of production organization, it is possible to develop a large economic cluster at this deposit and produce several types of final products. The business owner says, "I don't need this. It's enough for me to get concentrate or even ore, put it on the market, and I've had enough." In this case, further stages of the technological cycle leave the region. These include jobs, taxes, and a whole range of positive economic and social effects for the region. That's the problem that exists. There are others.

— Little depends on the locals, because taxes go to the center?

— I am not an expert in the field of tax policy, but, in my opinion, regions should have more opportunities in this regard.

— With the current centralization, do local authorities have any opportunities to make the regions more attractive so that young people do not leave them?

— There are always opportunities, the main thing is their realization. It is necessary to understand the scale of these opportunities and the conditions for their implementation. Unfortunately, social and economic inter-regional differences are great, and overcoming this, especially social, asymmetry is one of the most urgent state tasks that must be addressed at all levels of territorial government.

— Abramovich comes to mind now, when he was appointed governor of Chukotka.

— There was partly the goodwill of a single billionaire, who shared part of the profits with the region. But it is more reliable when the development of the region proceeds mainly on a market basis, in a natural way.

— Do you think something can be done now to prevent such a rapid outflow of people from Siberia and the Far East?

— It is not only possible, but also necessary, especially since the tools for overcoming such negative trends are mostly well-known: the development of social and innovative education spheres, the diversification of the structure of the economy, and the expansion of the functionality of regional bodies. Of course, investments are needed and, possibly, an adjustment of tax policy.

— Have you made any such proposals? Maybe to the President or the State Duma?

— As I have already said, the commission participated in the development of “Spatial Development Strategy of the Russian Federation”.

Also in 2012-2014, we initiated the project "Journey from St. Petersburg to Moscow" 222 years after the publication of Radishchev's book. The name was a symbolic one. The task was to show how Russia lives between the two capitals, what trends are observed, what problems there are and possible ways to solve them. As a result, the members of the commission prepared a number of recommendations, which they brought to the Russian Government and published in the form of a monograph.

Another large-scale work was completed in 2018: "Russian Baltic: State, Problems, Prospects". We looked at how the Baltic coast changed after its part became not ours, what problems arose, and what the prospects for their solution were. A similar research project on Russian Fennoscandia, the Kola Peninsula and Karelia, is currently being completed.

In recent years, we have been actively engaged in the problems of marine spatial planning.

— And what is the reason for such interest?

— The seas are getting crowded. This is already a political problem, an environmental problem, and a social problem. Competition for the use of the resources of the seas and coasts, for the use of water areas and territories is intensifying. We are currently working on this issue. We have held three international seminars, the fourth will be held, and we plan to publish a monograph. The research will result in specific recommendations on the rationalization of marine and coastal environmental management.

— Which seas are you talking about specifically?

— This includes the Baltic Sea, including the Gulf of Finland, the Barents Sea, and the waters of our other polar seas.

— Do you communicate your recommendations to the governors and local governments?

— Yes. It's another matter how much they use it. But, of course, we inform. Moreover, we try to work in contact with regional and local authorities.

— In your opinion, do local, regional, and federal authorities now understand how important planning and organization are?

— It is difficult to answer unequivocally. Some people understand, some don't. It depends on a number of factors, including intelligence. But it is difficult for me to get a general idea, I am personally acquainted with few governors. Those who I had to deal with in the process of preparing the Schemes for the socio-economic development of the Krasnoyarsk and Kamchatka Territories understood the importance of the territorial organization and spatial planning of the region.

— Are the executive authorities able to understand your recommendations without outside help?

— You know, this is a delicate matter. No one has authorized me to determine the degree of competence of regional authorities, but I will take the liberty to say that it is necessary to constantly improve the skills of employees of regional and local authorities. As you know, our education focuses on continuous learning, on the constant acquisition of more and more new competencies. I believe that the aforementioned four-volume monograph "Modern Geography of Russia" will also be useful for these purposes.

— Tell us more about this book.

— This is a very timely publication that will increase interest in geography. We created it, focusing on both researchers and the educational sphere, and just so that an educated person would not be bored reading it. Our country is the largest, and we know very little about it. Geography is being kicked out of schools lately. Nowadays, the average person often has absolutely fantastic, sometimes comical ideas of geography.

— You are talking about the lack of educated readers, but are there enough specialists?

— There is a problem with young workers. The number of geographer graduates in various fields of our science has decreased. In addition, demand is generally decreasing. This entails great damage for related branches of science, for the economy, and for our society as a whole. Even in the field of conservation of natural diversity, the spots for specialists-geographers are often occupied by people with a completely different education and unclear ideas about what they preserve and how it should be done...

— And, accordingly, we get mistakes that could have been avoided if geographers had taken their place?

— Yes, of course. Fortunately, Geographer's Day has recently been approved and a professional standard has been developed. This should strengthen the position of geographers primarily in the applied field.

— And who is needed more now: theoretical geographers or practitioners?

— Maybe my dear colleagues will take offense at me, but in my opinion, we have always had an abundance of theorists. Practitioners who have a real impact – the situation with them is more complicated.

— Where in Russia do they train excellent specialists?

— There are not as many such universities as in Soviet times. These are Moscow State University, St. Petersburg State University, Perm University. Unfortunately, Mikhail Sharygin, one of the leaders of the Perm School of geographers, died recently. Kaliningrad, Saratov, Kazan, Rostov-on-Don, Voronezh, Krasnodar, Vladivostok, Tomsk, Novosibirsk, Irkutsk have always been and still are major centers of university geography. But, unfortunately, the departmental composition of the faculties of geography is constantly decreasing, and the faculties themselves are disappearing as a result of mergers.

— In your opinion, do large companies already understand the importance of specialized personnel in the field of Earth sciences?

— A lot depends on who runs these companies. For example, urban planning research institutes and design institutes attract geographers and rely on them. I do not know what the current situation is in the design organizations of the extractive industries, but as far as I remember, geographers used to work there productively. Geographers also work in the administrative structures of the subjects of the Russian Federation. Nevertheless, it is certainly necessary to promote and disclose the possibilities and expediency of using the creative potential of geography and geographers in the economic sphere.

— Do you often get grants, or would you like more?

— The RGS has a very solid and successful grant policy. Relevant contests are held every year. We didn't have such opportunities until 2010. There probably isn’t such thing as too many grants, but objectively speaking, there's nothing wrong with grants in the RGS.

— And if we talk about the next five years of the commission's work? Maybe some future ideas or continuation of old projects?

— Now we are faced with the task of completing the series "Modern Geography of Russia”. It is a very serious effort that involves a huge range of specialists. In the near future, the commission also plans to prepare proposals for the draft of the Federal Law "Fundamentals of Territorial Organization in the Russian Federation". A series of regional analytical developments is planned to be continued. Previously completed projects include “Russian Baltic” and “Russian Fennoscandia”. We will continue to hold an international school-seminar for young scientists "Theory and Practice of Modern Regional Studies" annually in different cities of Russia. It is also planned to hold scientific conferences and seminars, including on the issues of marine spatial planning.

Interviewed by Natalya Mozilova

Отделение этнографии Императорского Русского географического общества возникло одновременно с появлением самого Общества — в 1845 году. Его заслуга - сохранение богатейшего материала о культуре и истории народов России. В свой 175-летний юбилей Этнографическая комиссия, наследница Отделения, продолжает объединять людей и сохранять традиции. К предстоящему съезду РГО об итогах последних пяти лет мы поговорили с председателем Комиссии, научным руководителем Института этнологии и антропологии им. Н.Н. Миклухо-Маклая Российской академии наук Валерием Тишковым.

— Валерий Александрович, расскажите, пожалуйста, когда восстановили Этнографическую комиссию РГО и кто в неё входит?

— Этнографическую комиссию восстановили весной 2011 года. За это время в ней сложился сильный состав учёных-этнологов. Среди них также есть краеведы, культурологи, фольклористы. Одно из свидетельств высокого уровня членов комиссии — это получение за последние пять лет тремя её членами Государственных премий Российской Федерации в области науки. Академик Наумкин получил премию за исследования истории культуры народов арабского Востока, а член-корреспондент Головнев — за исследование истории культуры народов российской Арктики.

— До революции Этнографическая комиссия изучала малые коренные народы, традиции и быт многочисленных народностей. Сейчас, вроде бы, всё про всех известно. Чем вы занимаетесь?

— Приоритетных направлений деятельности нет. У нас вся Россия в поле зрения. Иногда есть интерес и за пределами нашей страны, особенно если речь идёт о диаспорах, о так называемом Русском мире — русскоязычных зарубежных соотечественниках. Возможности комиссии достаточно скромные. Мы получаем ежегодно два-три гранта в рамках грантовой поддержки РГО. Но в целом отношение со стороны Общества и Попечительского Совета к нам доброжелательное. Мы были одними из активных участников Фестиваля РГО, в основу которого легло знакомство с культурами народов России, — их одеждой, жилищами, ремёслами, духовными традициями.

— Когда Общество только создали, практически все экспедиции были этнографическими: собирали костюмы, фольклор, создавали карты. А что изучают современные этнографы?

— Ранние академические экспедиции отличались комплексностью, этнография воспринималась как часть географии: собирались в равной степени сведения и о фауне, и о флоре, и о населении. Не было понятия "этнограф", а было понятие "антрополог".

Сейчас не найти такого места, где бы проживало сообщество, неизученное и неописанное. Совсем непознанных мест фактически на земном шаре не существует. Но антропологи-этнологи продолжают возвращаться к изучению разных человеческих сообществ, в том числе и чтобы сравнить данные своих исследований с результатами, которые были получены 100, 50 или 30 лет назад. Современная "антропология и этнология" (именно так называется ныне самостоятельное направление подготовки в вузах страны) занимается не только сбором исчезающих артефактов и экзотических традиций и нравов. Она занимается также изучением социально-культурных трансформаций, в том числе культурных новаций и культурно-сложных сообществ. Сегодняшняя новация — завтрашняя традиция. Так что мы динамично подходим к понятию "культура". Например, культурные антропологи часто смотрят на то, как старые обычаи, практики, устои сочетаются с современной жизнью.

Многие этнографические экспедиции идут через академические организации. Есть гранты Российского фонда фундаментальных исследований, институты планируют полевые исследования, есть индивидуальные исследователи: фольклористы и лингвисты, изучающие языки, которые находятся под угрозой исчезновения.

— Кстати, про языки: то, что они исчезают, это трагедия или норма? Стоит ли их спасать?

— Лет 15 назад ЮНЕСКО создала энциклопедию исчезающих языков, в которой предсказала, что пройдёт полвека и от 5-7 тысяч языков останется малая часть, а остальные — вымрут. Жизнь говорит, что языки удивительным образом сохраняются, даже если носителей остаётся всего несколько сотен: вспомните исследователей конца XIX века, которые писали, что пройдёт 10-20 лет и языка кетов, эвенков и чукчей не останется…

Важны политика государства и общества, роль науки, а также поведение самих носителей языка. В 1980-е годы я посещал гавайские общины. Тогда никто на гавайском языке не говорил, а спустя 20 лет приехал — население говорит на гавайском, учебники появились. Есть такое понятие "ревитализация" — возрождение языка за счёт усилий лингвистов, фольклористов, этнографов. К тому же, среди молодого поколения есть интерес к малым родным языкам. Это очень позитивная тенденция. Современная наука считает, что родных языков может быть ни один, а два, т.е. речь идёт о полностью двуязычных людях. Так, очень многие представители народов Поволжья ещё в XIX веке перешли на русский язык, для них он в той же степени родной, что и язык их национальности. Дети, родившиеся в смешанных браках, свободно говорят на двух языках. Например, представители северокавказских народов, которые замечательно говорят и по-карачаевски, и по-чеченски, и по-русски. Двуязычие становится очень распространённым.

— А насколько важна в сохранении языков роль государства?

— Очень важна. За весь ХХ век на территории бывшего Советского Союза благодаря политике государства, усилиям носителей языка, отношению общества и науки не исчез ни один язык, кроме одного из вариантов  эскимосского языка жителей ликвидированного посёлка Сиреники.

Проблемой языков малых народов надо заниматься. Если не способствовать сохранению языка, передачи его новому поколению, он может исчезнуть. Но в то же время надо признать право на свободный "языковой переход" — право человека на добровольную языковую ассимиляцию, на выбор языка-кормильца, более "обещающего" языка с точки зрения жизненных возможностей.

— Как считаете, РГО делает достаточно для сохранения культур малых народов? Может быть, надо по-другому подойти к этой проблеме: издавать аудиокниги, создавать программы на разных языках и выпускать их на федеральных каналах?

— Интерес к этнокультурной мозаике нашей страны возрастает, в том числе благодаря усилиям РГО. Проводятся фестивали, общероссийский этнографический диктант, наряду с географическим диктантом. Недавно под моей редакцией вышло учебное пособие для начальной школы "Дорогой дружбы", которое рассказывает младшим школьникам о многообразии традиций народов. Последние наши исследования показывают, что сегодня есть большой интерес к этнокухне, этномоде, вообще, "этно" поднимается с низового уровня на общенациональный, страновой, и даже глобальный. Трудно представить успех сербского режиссёра Кустурицы без использования цыганского, балканского этнографического компонента. И в российском кинематографе, и в литературе "этно" включается очень мощно. Неверно относить "этно" к низшему уровню культуры. Без этнического компонента не было бы и значительной части современной музыки, начиная с джаза. Посмотрите на поп-культуру: если бы исполнители на Евровидении не включали этнокомпонент, то не было бы такого интереса и успеха. Глобальная, страновая и этническая культуры находятся сегодня во взаимно обогащающем  диалоге.

Можно быть довольным, как в стране развивается интерес к этнокультурному многообразию. Но не в меньшей степени нужно заботиться о сохранении российской идентичности, осознании, что мы — один российский народ и общего среди россиян не меньше, а больше, чем различий. Единство и многообразие — формула, по которой мы стараемся жить и в науке, и общественной нашей жизни.

— На Ваш взгляд, какую роль играет фольклор в современном обществе?

— Сейчас много фольклорных фестивалей, я иногда с опаской отношусь к ним. Они не всегда устраивают и представителей самих народов: всё хотят свести к экзотике, чтобы развивать экономически ориентированный этнотуризм (наподобие бушменов в Африке). Этнокоммерциализация низводит носителей культуры до уровня живых экспонатов, и я к этому отношусь с настороженностью. Я с равным уважением отношусь к современной жизни, современным новациям и к этнографической старине.

— Как филолог не могу не спросить: в советское время во всех магазинах продавали сказки народов СССР, на которых мы росли. Сейчас ничего подобного нет. Может быть, необходимы новые книги сказок?

— В регионах — Дагестане, Татарстане, Бурятии, Якутии и на Чукотке — довольно много таких книг, просто до магазинов по стране они не всегда доходят. Может, вы и правы, и нужно создать виртуальную библиотеку, сделать единый портал силами нашей комиссии и РГО. Собрать то, что уже есть, тем более современные методы оцифровки это позволяют. Вполне можно сделать этнобиблиотеку, ей бы пользовались тысячи людей. То же самое можно сделать с видео: смотрите, как возрос интерес к виртуальному туризму на фоне пандемии. У нас немало сделано документальных зарисовок, примеров выдающегося этнографического, антропологического кино. Я за то, чтобы наша комиссия и РГО в целом стали центром, который собрал бы всё богатство.

— Я вспомнила сейчас Абрамовича, когда его назначили губернатором Чукотки.

— Там была отчасти добрая воля отдельно взятого миллиардера, который частью прибыли делился с регионом. Но надежнее, когда развитие региона идёт в основном на рыночной основе, естественным путём.

Знаю, что Пьер Броше, создатель этнографичеких фильмов и передач, путешественник и энтузиаст, будет снимать фильмы о народах России. Собирается снять около десятка фильмов. И всё же первичная цель — собрать, распространить и сделать доступным.

— Представьте, что вашей комиссии будут давать неограниченное количество средств на проекты, которые можно реализовать с помощью РГО?

— Я против (смеётся). За гранты нужно отвечать. Но если бы удалось увеличить число грантов в 3-4 раза, то мы бы больше поддерживали фольклорные исследования, исследования языков, этнотуризм, издательскую деятельность, выпуск этнографических фильмов.

— Какими Вы видите следующие 5 лет работы вашей комиссии в рамках РГО? Какие бы векторы обозначили?

- В 2021 году состоится XIV конгресс антропологов и этнологов в Томске. Мы планируем там заседание комиссии, и будем обсуждать перспективы нашей работы. Надо посмотреть, что можно сделать по части архивов: у нас много ценных документов и уникальных материалов картографических, эпистолярных, и современных форм визуализации и трансляции культурного и этнографического материала, помимо книг. Но книгу я бы тоже не списывал. Книга остаётся важнейшей формой фиксации культуры, её трансляции и изучения. Всё же без книг нам не обойтись.

— Какие книги, из числа недавно выпущенных, наиболее значительные?

— Производителем фундаментальной академической литературы по этнографии народов России являются академические институты, в том числе Институт этнологии и антропологии имени Миклухо-Маклая. Институт издал 35 томов серии "Народы и культуры". Сейчас мы завершаем эту серию — скоро должны выйти тома по народам Сибири и Дальнего Востока, об адыгах (черкесах), ногайцах и казахах. Думаем над тем, чтобы все эти книги разместить в интернете.

Есть и другие замечательные книги, посвящённые народам и отдельным формам культуры, например, православным традициям. Изданы фундаментальные труды в российских республиках: в Казани, Уфе, Элисте, Петрозаводске, Якутске, Улан-Удэ. Очень богатые издания выпускают музеи: Кунсткамера, Российский этнографический музей. Литературы много. Посмотрите энциклопедию "Народы и религии мира", позже издали "Атлас религий и культур России". Есть энциклопедия "Народы России" под моей редакцией. Эти справочные издания доступны и в интернете.

— Если говорить о современном обществе, на что Вы как председатель Этнографической комиссии РГО обращаете внимание?

— В российском интернете этноматериала гораздо больше, чем мы предполагаем. Низовая инициатива интересна. Возможно, нужны конкурсы.  Есть этнографический диктант, Фестиваль РГО, но можно и ещё что-то сделать, особенно на региональном уровне. Сегодня интересны направления народных видов спорта, этнической кухни и моды, есть крупные праздники, вроде сабантуя или якутского праздника Ысыах, на которые съезжаются представители других народов из разных регионов. Такие вещи я поддерживаю, особенно на Северном Кавказе, где этнический "изоляционизм" больше чувствуется, чем, скажем, в Поволжье и Сибири. Кросс-этнические мероприятия и проекты позволяют сделать границы между республиканскими образованиями, а значит, и между народами, более проницаемыми.

— Молодёжи понятно, чем занимается метеоролог, геолог, картограф. Но вот этнограф… Достаточно ли специалистов, которые перенимают Ваш опыт?

— Преподавание и подготовка профессиональных этнографов — это проблема: в ряде вузов закрылись кафедры этнологии. Для нашей страны профессиональных антропологов и этнологов мало, нужно в 5-10 раз больше. У нас есть профильные кафедры в РГГУ, МГУ, СПбГУ, ещё в 5-7 университетах. А вот, к примеру, в Дагестане нет кафедры этнологии в университете, а Дагестан — это уникальное средоточие разных народов и языков. Так можно утратить традицию российской и советской этнографии.

Интерес нужно стимулировать, поднимать престиж. Есть страны, в которых в штаты посольств обязательно включается антрополог-этнолог: дипломаты меняются каждые 3-5 лет, только успевает узнать народ той или иной страны и уезжает, а профессиональный учёный знает страну, какие народы живут, на каких языках говорят, какие религии исповедуют. В посольствах США во многих странах есть такие специалисты. Кроме того, это бизнес: в крупных корпорациях и международных деловых организациях, например, во Всемирном банке, есть антропологи, которые изучают культурно ориентированные аспекты бизнеса и хозяйственной активности. Нельзя крупной корпорации приезжать в тундру, тайгу или амазонскую сельву осваивать ресурсы и не иметь представления о том, кто там живёт. Проложили дорогу, перекрыли плотиной реку, сделали водохранилище — надо понимать, какой ущерб нанесен тем, кто там веками жил, пас оленей или же что-то добывал в тропических лесах. Современные международные бизнесы довольно строго ориентированы на учёт культурных особенностей.

Этнографическая комиссия РГО с большим трудом пробивает закон об  этнологической экспертизе, но на федеральном уровне он так и не принят — аборигенам нельзя получать компенсации за нанесённый им ущерб, соучаствовать в освоении ресурсов, иметь от этого некоторые дивиденды. Я путешествовал по канадской Арктике во время освоения нефтегазовых ресурсов в районе реки Маккензи и моря Бофорта. Помню, как всё было продумано, и какие споры возникали с местными жителями вплоть до судебных исков из-за протечки или других экологических нарушений. У нас в Норильске выпустили 30 тысяч тонн нефти в тундру, ни одного иска со стороны аборигена нет, потому что нет законных правовых основ. И при добыче ресурсов, и при развитии любой промышленности должен быть учёт культурных особенностей. Профессиональные антропологи и этнографы, чьими услугами обычно пользуются общины, крайне нужны нашей стране. У нас же это не развито в должной мере, но на ошибках учатся, я надеюсь.

— Как РГО поощряет специалистов в области этнографии?

— По инициативе Комиссии РГО восстановлена Золотая медаль имени Н.Н. Миклухо-Маклая. Кандидатуры, которых мы выдвигали и которые были приняты, очень ярко прозвучали: Майкл Хоппэл (Венгрия), специалист по шаманизму, Ула Йохансен (Германия), "бабушка немецкой этнологии", Даниил Тумаркин (Россия), специалист по Океании, Сергей Арутюнов (Россия), исследователь народов Арктики, Японии, Индии.

Комиссия поддерживает выпуск серии этнографических альбомов, которые вводят в оборот, открывают неизвестные до этого фото- и видеоматериалы. Последний альбом — огромный архив академика Дмитрия Анучина. Перед этим были ещё три издания. Это очень важно с просветительской точки зрения.

Вообще, задача комиссии — просветительская. Мы пропагандируем знания о стране, о многообразии российского народа. Поддерживаем производство фильмов по этнографии. С нашей поддержкой вышли замечательные фильмы "Книга тундры" и "Книга моря" Алексея Вахрушева, фильм Ивана Головнева об Арсеньеве.

Я очень доволен деятельностью нашей комиссии, но хотелось бы, чтобы было больше ярких, запоминающихся событий.

Беседовала Наталья Мозилова